Inbound Marketing To Generate Endless Consulting Clients With Phil Alves: Podcast #300

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IIf you want to grow your consulting business and enhance your marketing, you’re in luck! Today, we have a special guest who will share his secrets to success in driving business growth. Phil Alves, the CEO of DevSquad, has a unique strategy to grow his consulting business through inbound marketing to generate endless consulting clients. He provides tips on how you can avoid digital marketing mistakes that could cost you thousands. Phil also shares his strategy to attract the best employees and how you can create an optimal environment to fuel your creativity. Witness Phil’s expertise as he ventures through inbound marketing today!

Joining the show is Phil Alves. Phil is the CEO of DevSquad, a boutique consulting firm of 90 personnel specializing in SaaS products. His clientele list is impressive, featuring names such as ADP, Box, and the US ski team. Under Phil’s leadership, the company is successfully overseeing the creation of over 100 software products.

In this episode, you will learn that Phil devotes considerable time to studying the strategies of large consulting firms when thinking about growing and scaling his business. You may find yourself lacking this time to emulate Phil’s approach. The great news is you don’t have to. Instead, you can reach out to the Consulting Success team for personalized coaching and support to enhance and expand your consulting business, marketing, and revenue. Go ahead and visit for more information and to apply.

As you are reading this episode with Phil, there are a few things I want you to look out for. The first is how to use a domain name to win new customers, which is Phil’s unique marketing strategy he used to grow his consulting business on how to avoid silly digital marketing mistakes that could cost you thousands, why we are entering into the golden age of consulting and how you can take advantage of it, a strategy to attract the best employees, and how to create an optimal environment to fuel your creativity plus so much more. Here to share with you his incredible insight is Phil Alves. Enjoy.

We get started talking a little bit about what you were doing before DevSquad. Before you started this business, what was your background?

I sold a small SaaS business that I built when I was still in Brazil. I ended up using that money to move to the United States. To get a student visa, you have to prove that you have a certain amount of money in the bank and they don’t have to work for a couple of years, and that’s what I did. I moved here and already knew how to develop software. I did some freelancing for different people. I ended up getting a job first as a senior developer, and then I ended up leading a team.

That’s what I was doing, and I realized there was a big need for development teams that think, not like heads or hired guns, but people that come and that think strategically and think about the product. That’s when I decided I would leave my job and try to run this company. Originally, my plan was to stay very small. I want to have one squad and a personal lead desk squad as the technical product manager and product strategist and have a team of 4 to 6 developers and a QA.

That would be the team, then we would be able to work with different customers. We will be very selective and help them take products to market and do rescue. That’s how I started. Eventually, I realized that could be scalable and I could replicate that. That’s when I even rebranded because originally, I was SLC Dev Shop. My whole plan was to stay local to work with the market here in Utah. SLC stands for Salt Lake City. I realized I could scale. I went and bought the domain and paid a bunch of money for it. That’s when we tried to replicate that work.

Do you remember how much you paid for the domain name?

It was well over $20,000.

It’s a good solid domain name. It’s a nice one. You came from Brazil to the US. How strong was your English at that point?

It was horrible.

I’m asking because I had the experience of moving to Japan and opening up a branch office for our consulting company at that time. I remember that it was extremely exciting. I loved a lot of it, but there were also a lot of challenges. I was a foreigner. I was still learning Japanese at that time and learning the culture. Even though I’d been involved with the culture and not many Japanese people, it was still a challenge. I’m wondering for you. What was that like coming to the US? You are now operating in a new language. It’s a new culture. You are not only trying to survive, you are trying to build a business in that environment. What was that like for you?

I learned the culture and the language first. I got here and then I was going to college, but I realized that even though I spoke English well enough to get into college, it wasn’t well enough to look, to do business, and to be able to communicate in the business world. In the beginning, I was doing freelancing work and doing the work myself, and people would be happy to hire me because I knew how to code.

They could talk to me and they could use a paper and draw on what they need me to do. On my job when I was leading a team, I was absorbing the culture and learning the language. It was only after I had a grasp on the culture and the language that I decided to start DevSquad. As a foreigner, you always going to have an accent. It is never going to be perfect, but I was very comfortable with the language and the culture by the time I decided to run a business inside a consulting firm.

You can’t put a bunch of people on the website if the message is wrong. Click To Tweet

It’s a great example to show. You can create success regardless of the new location, different culture, and different language. If you want to do it, you figure out a way to make it happen and look at where you built it now. Let’s fast forward a little bit. You had a bunch of different jobs. You decided, “I’m going to go off and start creating this company and build this business myself.” When you decided to start DevSquad, how did you get your first few clients? I know you said you were doing some freelancing, but when you think about the first major client for the business, where did they come from?

I had a website, and the first big customer that made me quit my job and go full-time was a ski team. What happened was they reached out through the website. We rank on the third page of Google. Somehow, they were very patient. I kept clicking through it. They sent the RFP for a project and I was like, “That’s an amazing opportunity.” I want to meet with them to ask questions and I want to do a POC before the deadline to send in the actual proposal. By the time I sent the proposal, I had already presented a POC and I had already established a relationship with these people.

Explain POC for those who aren’t familiar.

Proof of Concept. We build a piece of their software working for the hardest part of the problem they were trying to solve. I was like, “I can solve it. This is a proof of concept.” It was about 3 or 4 weeks from the time they reached out to the time the actual proposal was due. At that time, I was working on the product. I was working on building relationships. I wasn’t just writing stuff on paper because I didn’t even feel like I was as strong to do that to know how to write and how to make it beautiful. It was more about showing our work and building relationships with our stakeholders at the organization.

Do you think the fact that you are building and creating something tangible was ultimately what led them to decide to work with you, even though you are on the third page of Google? Was it that you took more action and showed them more value upfront than others did?

Yes. It is an opportunity to show a lot of value. I had 2 or 3 meetings with them before I submitted the proposal, and the actual proposal was working softer. Granted they staged them, we don’t do that anymore.

You don’t need to because you have enough recognition in the marketplace and enough large clients. Early on, the lesson there and the opportunity for so many is to have that mindset of over-delivering or taking the next step beyond what other people would be. Therefore, it’s hard for a buyer to think not to engage with you if you are showing them so much value upfront. Imagine what’s going to happen when we start paying this person to this company. That makes sense.

You landed at that engagement and the business started from there. Fast forward a little bit, if we push that button to the last couple of years inside of the business and even now, what are you doing from a marketing perspective to generate new clients’ inquiries? What does the business development marketing side of the business look like now?

It’s all inbound for everything that we get. We do LinkedIn and Google Ads. I run a podcast. That’s where our leads are coming from.

Is the podcast the biggest source or one of the biggest sources? The breakdown for me is a little bit of people coming to your website through SEO to find your content or find the website. You have the show and Google Ads. What would you say are the overall percentages of the different channels and the percentage of inquiries that each of them is driving?

I would say SEO and Google Ads are probably 60% of everything that we get, and then paid social is another 10%, and then the other 30% is going to be display and referrals. The podcast is pretty new, but it already generates business a little bit from the podcast. The foundation is Google. The foundation of what we do is SEO and pay-per-click.

CSP Phil Alves | Generate Endless Consulting Clients

For those that aren’t as familiar or not in terms of what it is SEO, it is Search Engine Optimization. Is this focusing on creating articles long-form content that is around a specific topic or do you have a different approach to doing that?

That’s exactly that. Another part that’s important that we are very big is CRO, which is Conversion Rate Optimization. When we started, we didn’t say, “We are a SaaS consulting firm. We help you build SaaS products.” We are just, “We are a development company.” Everybody is a development company, so that’s not great.

We start to like, “What do we like to do? What do we have the most value? Where’s the market that we play?” We have to go and figure out who our customers are or the products we like to build and work on the messaging. A lot of our work in marketing was around messaging because you can put a bunch of people on the website. If the message is wrong or if you are putting the wrong people on the website, it doesn’t matter.

It’s such a good point. I say this often and see this a lot where consultants call themselves like, “I’m a marketing consultant or a management consultant.” It’s like, “Great, so is everybody.” What do you do? What’s different about you? Tell me a little bit about Google Ads. What keywords are you targeting or how do you think about Google Ads in terms of what you are trying to accomplish with those? Where are you trying to reach people? Is it people that are early on in their journey or are it people who have the budget and they are ready to start building now? What do you think when it comes to advertising on Google?

Advertising on Google is about capturing demand. Meaning I’m not going long. Google is very smart with the way the systems are built and because they know the last 20 or 30 searches that you made in those when you are ready to buy. Our whole strategy around capturing demand is to be in front of the person who’s ready to buy.

We don’t have any like, “Here’s a whitepaper.” Our call to action is, “Let’s get on the phone,” because we are about capturing demand. It’s not about generating demand for Google Ads per se. For SEO, it’s different. You are trying to stay upper in the funnel and stay at the top of the mind for those people, so that’s very different. For Google Ads, we are spending the money to close the deal.

You mentioned the messaging that was much more general. It didn’t necessarily work. Is there anything else that you have tried from a marketing or business development perspective to generate new leads and inquiries that are qualified that maybe you tried and did not work at all?

I would say half of the money you spend on marketing is wasted. They probably don’t know which half is the wasted one. We try everything from code email and outbound. In the beginning, it worked for a little bit, but it was hard. The mentality of the customer that comes might be a little bit different. Even if Google Ads itself, we went after keywords. They were the wrong keywords. We try Cora. We try Twitter. We try pretty much everything. We try sponsoring newsletters. None of those result in anything. I’m always trying. I have a portion of our marketing budget for exploration. I don’t get frustrated if I lose that money because the marks are changing and I don’t want to be so dependent on one channel. I’m always testing channels and trying to figure out if this works or not. More often than not, it doesn’t work.

That also means you are one step closer to eliminating that and defining something that does work. That allocation of budget or experimentation is a great idea. It takes us to my next question about overall budgets for marketing. Do you have an established budget where you say, “X percentage of our overall revenue or profit, we are going to use for marketing types of initiatives?” Is it more free-flowing where you try and find something that you think you want to test and you give it a shot? What do you think about the allocation of the budget towards this?

It’s an established budget, but I established based on last year how profitable we were based on that. I try to spend this year the money that I made last year. That’s how I run my business. We do have a set amount for marketing and then we track closely that we are trying to stay on track of our budget.

Can you give us an idea of whatever you are able to share in terms of what percentage you allocate towards marketing?

The goal is to take the technology risk to zero when we build a product. Click To Tweet

It’s over seven figures that we are putting into marketing.

Is it 10% or whatever?

Not if I give you a percentage of my revenue, so I won’t give you a percentage.

Whatever you are comfortable with sharing this info. You are making a significant investment into marketing on an annual basis.

It’s our biggest investment. Consulting, for me, I feel like you only have two costs. People and marketing. Those are the biggest two expenses in my P&L. It’s my people. My people are expensive and so is my marketing. I need my marketing to keep my people busy.

Chicken and egg. The two are directly connected. Let’s shift to the science but looking at the economic situation and the uncertainty that some people are talking about or the news and media are. Whether you choose to accept what you are hearing out outside or not some people are choosing to ignore it, but I’m wondering what you are seeing. Some companies now are finding that organizations are pulling back on their spending or they are being more cautious. Others are seeing fantastic growth in their business. What are you seeing now in the marketplace given your focus around SaaS businesses?

Specifically when you think about Q1, everyone is super worried. The people that were already investing would keep investing but they were a little bit iffier. I had a whole meeting internally with the team like, “Make sure you don’t drop the ball.” Everyone is on the edge. Everyone is hearing and seeing different things happening. There were less customers coming in, and it did have some customers that were funded by VC that they ended up leaving. As we lead now into Q3, I have been seeing, for us, a recovery because a lot of companies that did lay off, and now they realize like, “How are you going to get this work done?” They are also afraid of having W-2 employees.

We are starting the golden age of consulting firms because companies, in this economy, had to do layoffs and they are worried about having to do that over again, so they are more likely to outsource and bring someone where the risk is not with them. I have been saying things speaking up for consulting or SaaS itself, but we are not in the SaaS business. We are in consulting for SaaS. I do have a SaaS product, but I do see things speaking up for consulting firms in the second half of the year.

I’m with you on that. It’s an interesting environment, but there’s a huge opportunity for consultants and for those who know how to approach things and how to build a business. It is a massive opportunity now and going forward. The space of serving SaaS or working with SaaS companies applies to everybody regardless of whether they are in SaaS or not. You are not the only company that works with SaaS businesses. How do you think about creating an advantage or differentiation given that again there are others that provide similar types of services? What’s been your mindset towards that? What actions have you taken? What have you learned?

Our mindset is what we like to say and we do product-level thinking. There are a lot of development companies out there, but most of them take orders to take to the other side. Now, the competition is higher because someone can hire my consulting firm for development or they can hire X Twitter because all those people are in the market looking for jobs so the competition is a lot higher.

The way we try to differentiate is by being the partner to think about strategy, development, and design together. I don’t want to be like other development companies. I wanted to combine everything and help our customers think the big picture, push back, think about how to take the product to market and have processes and culture.

CSP Phil Alves | Generate Endless Consulting Clients

I believe that a lot of consulting firms do not have a culture and just work with each different project. That point is not a real consultant but a work per hour. We try to establish ourselves in the space of a real consulting firm. I like to say the development space, although you see is a lot of glorified staffing agents, we are not. We are not staffing agents. We don’t change.

You can’t come to me and say, “I want a developer with this many years of experience.” I will be like, “That’s to make a hire. If you come to us, I will tell you the developers that I have and the technology that we can work with.” It’s about the product, strategy, and thinking about the big picture. That’s what differentiates us.

Is it from the point that people see your ads? Is it in your content or on the website? Is it only discussed during a sales call? At what point are you communicating that differentiation?

For the whole funnel. I hope that when they show up to a sales call, they are already sold.

Where would they see it? Give us an example. Walk us through. Before somebody even jumps on a call with you or somebody on your team, what would they potentially be seeing that would help them to see or experience that differentiation?

From the homepage of the website, we were talking about the differentiation of our case studies to the content of our ads. Everywhere, its positioning is all different.

In terms of sales calls, are you doing all sales calls or do you have a team that does this? What does that sales process look like?

This is the stage where I do all of the calls. We got a bunch of leads. Most of them are qualified by email. I will send an email to them to get some additional information before jumping on a call to protect my time. It was funny. Someone was super mad at me and he was like, “You value your time more than you value speaking with new customers.” I’m like, “I get a bunch of leads every month and I want to make sure I don’t waste your time and my time.” He was super frustrated because I sent a follow-up email asking questions. I have all those templatized on our CRM, so I end up only taking a handful of calls every month from people who are very highly qualified.

What are you looking for? That qualification process is so important. It’s not uncommon for people to waste a lot of time talking to the wrong people. What have you learned and what do you look for to qualify people before you spend the time to get on call with them?

Our goal is to reduce technology risk to zero. There are different kinds of products. Some products required engineering and some products required some science too. In engineering, there’s A to B, and the A to B is guaranteed. That’s why I love being in the engineering space much as we talk a lot about marketing in this show. I love doing marketing for myself but not for other people because there’s no way to guarantee that they are going to get from A to B when you are talking about marketing.

In software, there are many times. Our customers usually view it as a boring B2B SaaS product. Maybe they are building a SaaS, let’s say in the case of ADP, to help people who are hiring, do a better job, and manage their hiring process. There’s not a real technological risk there. Also, I wanted the founder to be an industry expert if he does understand the industry and why he’s building a product for the industry.

The two things that we have to do in a consulting firm is to attract customers and to attract talent. Click To Tweet

Sometimes, you think about qualification for calls. What they are looking for is the buyer. Does that buyer have the ability to invest? Are they actual buyers? Are they from a large enough company or does it seem that they have enough money that they can make an investment? Are those factors that you look at, or are you not paying as much attention to those and focusing more on the risk or eliminating the risk around technology?

The first disqualifier is, do you have the money? Having the money alone doesn’t make that person the right fit to work with us. Even when we get into a sales call, my second slide is about the right fit. It’s about what works for us, how we do it, and what doesn’t work. I believe that to be successful, you have to work for the right customer, especially in a boutique firm like ours.

It’s a lot about making sure the customer is a fit for what we have to offer and what he’s trying to build, and it’s similar to this stuff that we did before. It’s going to be unique for his market and everything, but the technology and the things behind it are not going to be overwhelmingly different from anything else. B2B SaaS is very simple and there’s a lot of money to be made in B2B SaaS.

With that sales process, I’m thinking now about pricing as well. Sometimes people in technology, especially in the development space, might find that as they are speaking to a buyer, they are spending a lot of time getting all the documentation or getting clear on all the different technology pieces. They are investing a lot of time upfront without necessarily having a signed agreement and getting paid. I’m wondering what your process looks like there. I’d love to get a sense of how you think about pricing your projects. Is it based on hours? Is it based on some other form of time like day rates? Is it a monthly retainer type of fee or project fee? How do you approach that as well?

We like to work on retainers, but sometimes we also do SOWs with project fees specifically with big companies. We never close a deal, but sometimes we send SOWs for the government. There are things like that. Your first question was about how we make sure we are not wasting time. We charge the customers for that.

It’s very productized. We say, “There are two things that we do. We do product design and strategy. That’s the customer that costs X per hour and I will send the agreement. You’d start with 100 hours and then we go from there to do the strategy and the design.” From there, you can get a development squad that we would charge a monthly retainer depending on the size of your squad. It’s a squad of 2, 4, or 6 developers. Every squad has to have a product manager and QA. Do you need to add designers? What’s the complexity or the technology of the product that they have to build? That’s how we do our pricing.

You are allocating. You are saying, “Here’s a team or squad that you are going to get to come into the business or to work on the SaaS or Software as a Service.” What I’m wondering is what happens if any given month the buyer doesn’t have as much requirement. Does that roll over or do they forfeit that? How do you approach that since it sounds like you are using a bit of a retainer monthly payment for the team to be placed?

When I start talking to customers, that’s one of the qualifications. It’s for them to understand the software is never done. If they are running out of work, they are doing it wrong. You never heard that Salesforce or QuickBooks didn’t have work for their developers. You have to understand that if you are going to build a product, that’s a commitment to development.

I will tell them, “You are going to be paying us or you are going to be paying somebody else.” The day you go on that journey to build a software product, you are going to need developers. That’s the mentality that I want our clients to have and the right customers. They are going to always have more work than what we can do in 30 days. That mentality of like, “I’m going to build a project and I’m going to be done in three months, and then I’m going to be in maintenance mode,” I never saw that work and a SaaS B2B product that might work for an internal product, but that will never work when you are trying to build a digital product.

Is there anything from a pricing strategy side of the business that maybe you have changed or you have learned like you did something like version B and now you do version D because you have learned there’s a better way to do it? Are there any lessons and mistakes when it comes to pricing that you have implemented?

It’s like a full circle. When we started, we tried to do the project-based approach, and that didn’t work.

CSP Phil Alves | Generate Endless Consulting Clients

Why it didn’t work?

The customer was in one team and we were in another team. We went to do the least we could for the customer to put the most they could. They were less sophisticated customers too because we were starting. We got whomever we could get. We always ended up in that situation where we were losing money in a customer doing more work.

We moved out of project-based work and we went and did a retainer. When we moved to a retainer, I never lost money and then the company grew. Bigger companies start to come to us and they don’t buy crap on retainer. We lost a bunch of those deals because I was like, “No. This is how we work.” Some of them were even flexible enough to, “We going to work with your way because we want to work with you.” We then went full circle, and now we have both offers where we do have the project raise the SOW offer. The way that works is, for bigger companies is more money, they need a guarantee, but for them, it’s about being predictable.

When you say they need a guarantee, what do you mean? Do you mean that they guarantee a certain number of hours?

They need to make sure that if I spend X I’m going to have my product, but their X is very big. It can often build two products with their X. They prefer to know what’s going to cost X than for you to tell it’s going to be month to month and it’s going to be done whenever. We then end up learning how to properly scope for those bigger organizations and how to keep the SOW small. We like three months SOW because that way you can keep agile and then we renew another SOW and go from there. That was a big lesson for us.

I’m wondering when you were at that place where you need to make the decision. You are doing retainers and you don’t want to change because retainers are the way to go, but for the big companies, that does not work for them. You made the decision to introduce both options so we can either go the retainer route or we can go the project-based route for the larger organizations when they are not okay to sign up for retainers. Did you have a concern like, “Aren’t we introducing a lot more complexity into our business? We have to service two different ways of operating, accounting, or billing.” How did you think about making that decision in terms of the long-term benefits or path for the business?

I work a lot with my lawyer to try to make our SOWs a way that we could keep working in the same way that we would keep working. At the end of the day, we are like, “If we were doing this on a retainer, we would be doing this in six months. We are going to add three months for safety. Mr. Big Company, it’s going to be nine months and this is how much you are going to charge you.” We are able to run the operation very similarly and to do the milestones every three months. Accounting and legal are different. For everyone now, it’s fulfillment. It’s pretty much the same.

You are able to find a creative solution to essentially keep the train moving in the same direction but adjust the paint, the shape, or whatever else you want to say. That makes sense. There are a couple of final questions here about hiring because you have built your team to 90 people. It’s a good size company and you are in a market where there’s a lot of demand now.

Given the last few months or periods of time, a lot of large tech companies have been going through layoffs, so there are more people looking for work. Even historically, if you go back over the last several years, this is a space where it’s oftentimes hard to find good people. What have you learned when it comes to hiring A players or very talented people? Where do you go to find these people? What do you do? What do you think about making sure that you are able to bring them in?

I study a lot of big consulting firms and how they do it. You have to grow your people. You have to have the systems and leadership in place so you can hire people who will be able to excel inside your engine and grow from there. That’s where it’s very important. That’s why I don’t change our processes for every single customer, and it’s very important that I choose the right customer.

To answer your question, we were getting very talented people that have some experience but we are helping and growing them. Even if you hire a senior person, we still see that person not coming ready. We hire people. We have everything inside the company to train and grow these people, and we do the outside too like my CTO.

We have to trust our subconscious more because our mind knows what it’s supposed to do. Click To Tweet

He has a YouTube channel. He is showing people how to code. We build a thing around him where he’s an authority on the technologies that we work with. That makes it super easy because people want to work for him and with him. It has to be about getting the person from the associate to consult and bring that person up.

Another thing that I tell people is like, “A consulting firm is not we are going to stay forever. There is a limit to how much I can pay you because I have to have an X margin. If you stay in a consulting for 2 or 3 years, you are going to be so much better at what you do and it’s going to be for you to learn.” That’s part of how we influence people to stay here.

You talked to your CTO, which I found interesting. Is he or she an owner of the business like an equity owner?


Do they have a good chunk of equity, or is it a smaller piece? The reason I’m asking this is I’m wondering. You said they are building their brand and that is benefiting the company. Usually, the person who’s building the brand around them tends to be the leader of the company or tends to be the number one person or the majority owner. We take Gary Vaynerchuk as an example for his media company. He’s the brand, and that now helps the company and everybody inside of the company. Is he more the face of the company like external facing?

We split because there are two things that we have to do in a consulting firm. We have to attract customers and we have to attract talent. You and I are talking about attracting talent. I’m responsible for attracting customers. When I’m doing my podcast, when I’m doing my newsletter, or whatever it is that I’m doing, it is about attracting customers. His job then is to attract developers. Everything that he does is to become an expert and an authority in the developers and developers and designers look to him. This is how we split because I couldn’t have both brands.

You divide and conquer and you have very clear areas of focus. A couple more questions, then we will wrap up. You are a leader of a 90-person company growing and doing very well. What are 1 or 2 things that you do on a regular daily basis that you feel contribute to you being able to show up at a high level of performance and get things done? Any habits or things you are doing on a daily basis?

I have been paying a lot of attention to my health. I wake up every day and go to the gym before I come to work. That helps a lot. I have hobbies.

What are your hobbies?

I love cycling, flying, and Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Those are the three things I do. I do Brazilian jiu-jitsu as a good Brazilian. You never stop working as the founder and then have ideas because you let your subconscious do the work.

It’s so true. I find it myself as well at the gym in the morning or I’m out for a walk. That’s when the clarity or breakthroughs come when you see something very vividly. Whereas if I’m in the office here standing in front of the computer or whatever it might be, I don’t have those moments as much. It’s so important to get out and not only take care of your mind and your body but also, as you said, when you are in that different environment, good ideas tend to come forward.

CSP Phil Alves | Generate Endless Consulting Clients

That’s something that I learned. We have to trust our subconscious more because our mind knows what it’s supposed to do. Many times, we are here in the office trying to solve the problem. You will go and you sleep. The next day, we wake up in the middle of the night with the solution. If we start putting things in place to give our mind a break and letting it work in the background, like in a computer where you send the job, smash the job, and it’s going to be doing the processing, that’s very important. That’s what happens when you go on a walk, cycle, or do whatever. You let your mind do what was designed to do. If you are sleeping or whatever you are doing, your mind is always working.

In the last few months, what is one book that you have read, listened, to or anything comes to mind for you? It could be fiction or non-fiction, but something that you would recommend that others might enjoy.

The last book I read was super good. It’s called Creative Selection. It’s about how the team that built the iPhone and Apple work, the guy that built the keyboard, and how Apple used to run in the times of Steve Jobs.

By Ken Kocienda.

Yes. It’s such a good book. It’s a newer book. I love the book.

The name sounds familiar, but I have not read that.

I read a bunch of their books. Now, it is Misbehaving: The Making of Behavioral Economics. That one is super cool too.

I want to thank you for coming to spend a bit of time with us here and sharing a bit of your story. There’s so much that you have accomplished and so much that you guys have going on. I want to make sure that people can learn more about you, your company, and the work that you do. Where’s the best place for them to go and check it out?

You can go to I’m also at From there, you can send me an email or sign up for my newsletter.

That is it for this episode between Michael and Phil. If you enjoyed this episode, then as always, hit that subscribe button wherever you read your favorite show. If you want to help support the show, you can do so by either heading over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating and review or by sharing this episode with a friend or colleague who you feel would truly benefit from reading this episode.

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